tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post3430076801014061752..comments2023-10-11T03:48:57.606-04:00Comments on Head For the Red: Supremacy and Completeness of SystemsRufus Opushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10806987441760167537noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-82824244477122229282009-02-11T18:38:00.000-05:002009-02-11T18:38:00.000-05:00Gonna make a post or two to answer this, but did w...Gonna make a post or two to answer this, but did want to point out that for Magick you are looking in the wrong place. Dzogchen is the ultimate pinnacle of Tibetan Meditative practice, but you will find more of the occult stuff in Tantra, including the use of spirits. <BR/><BR/>Indeed I can say that the Tibetan cosmology of spirits makes Khabbalah look like simple. Check out Oracles and Demons of Tibet for a look. <BR/><BR/>Also Taoism has one of the most intense spirit-possession practices on the planet.Jason Miller,https://www.blogger.com/profile/03034226672257024583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-38246952696531039792009-02-11T15:28:00.000-05:002009-02-11T15:28:00.000-05:00We have in the west lots of legendary examples of ...We have in the west lots of legendary examples of folks who did "Yogic Miracles" for lack of a better term. Joseph of Cupertino could fly. The Apostles could heal the sick, raise the dead and slay with a word. Elijah, Moses, and a myriad mystic, Rabbi, Dervish, et al. Going even deeper into history the priestesses of Ishtar were said to cure blindness, sickness, fever, and all manner of ills just with their spit or their touch. <BR/><BR/>They just didn't write down how to DO it.. or if they did we don't have much access to those records. In general it seems that the hermetic and neoplatonist thinkers of the west (whatever outward religion they followed) were some of the only ones to treat mysticism and magic as a science, and as an outgrowth of human nature.<BR/><BR/>Also, the practice of the occult by whoever was practicing wasnt stamped down as a rule in the east till reletively recently. <BR/><BR/>The east vs. west debate is fascinating, but I think once practitioners find a common ground to communicate on, a magical metric system so to speak, we can do a lot more translation of pure technique. Because we are, after all, looking at the same Reality, just from differing vantages. <BR/><BR/>The west has a lot to offer, especially for westerners who are already soaked to the marrow with it's ideas and currents. Sadly most of us are self taught, and lacking in a clear curriculum of basic magical skills, and we aquire those skills in a very round about way. We have almost no choice in the matter because of the huge gaps in our magical heritage. We are forced over and over to reinvent, if not the wheel, then the bycicle, and then the car..<BR/><BR/>On the subject of initiation and transmission: A lot of Lineage Founders in east and west were either litterally born awesome, or recieved their "charter" from a spirit of some kind. Melkizadek intiated Abraham, the Angel of the LORD initiated Jacob, Jesus gave marching orders to St. Francis, Al Kidir pops up from time to time to give a dervish a wink and a nod in the right direction. In the east Tilopa recieved transmission and instruction directly from Vajrahara, and Matsendranatha eavesdropped on Shiva and Parvati's Lovemaking and learned the secrets of yoga. And from those humans who were tapped the human lineage begins. IMO Spirit transmission, totally valid, just hard to verify.Mr. J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08992497721332168579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-88269361764197788562009-02-11T12:46:00.000-05:002009-02-11T12:46:00.000-05:00Astero,I knew the Eastern systems conjured spirits...Astero,<BR/><BR/>I knew the Eastern systems conjured spirits, but I didn't know the details. I thought they manifested them using something like the tulpa method, and that it was across the board. My ignorance on the matter far outweighs my experience and knowledge. <BR/><BR/>My thing about Western magic for Westerners is that the misunderstandings would in theory be less because of our cultural programming, the cultrual resonance. We already have an "in" with the egregores of the Western systems. But at the same time, I've completely misunderstood things from my own culture, like the HGA's role in spiritual transformation, so it's not like there are any guarantees even by sticking to your own culture.Rufus Opushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10806987441760167537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-77033511864495590342009-02-11T12:00:00.000-05:002009-02-11T12:00:00.000-05:00I disagree that western systems are better for wes...I disagree that western systems are better for westerners. Magic works, no matter what your cultural background is. If an eastern system works for easterners, then it works for westerners. (And vice versa.)<BR/><BR/>Of course, sometimes cultural misunderstandings crop up. But that's another matter.<BR/><BR/>It's not true that eastern systems don't call up spirits. They do. And if you read Master Chuang by Saso, you would see Daoist ritual evocations following amazingly similar formats as Grimoiric rituals.<BR/><BR/>The problem is that magic, like piano, tailoring, woodworking, and other pre-modern arts, is best taught by a teacher. In fact, it's far harder to learn magic by yourself than it is to learn woodworking by yourself. Having a master who knows what he is doing will save you lots of time. (Why invent the wheel?)<BR/><BR/>There are aspects of eastern magical systems which are not available in the West, e.g. Daoist inner alchemy. But given the brevity of life, a human only has to concentrate on one aspect of magic and master it. He is not compelled to learn everything about magic.Asteropaeushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05728801157286392526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-73385749416125981482009-02-11T11:35:00.000-05:002009-02-11T11:35:00.000-05:00I may blog about my experiences relating to this, ...I may blog about my experiences relating to this, because while I've read Agrippa, The Emerald Tablet, The Corpus Hermeticum, various Grimoirs, and so many other texts, I don't work with spirits, per say. I've worked with the Archangels; Uriel, Raphael, Gabriel, and Michael. I've also worked heavily with animal spirits, or totems... guides if you will... in the tradition of shamanism. But I have never worked with the Goetia, or with the Enochian systems.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, I've manifested everything I've Willed only working with my Guide (or HGA if you prefer) and animal spirits, via dreams, visions, and magic performed, designed to work with said Will. As I've mentioned within a few of my blogs, the manner in which my Will manifests may not be exactly as I may prefer, but the end result is exactly what I intend... without the standard Western Esoteric methods of Goetia or Enochian Spirit work.<BR/><BR/>I can't tell you what this means, exactly; I can only tell you that my methods work for me. They always have.Rose Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11289493128753395716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-67770392829460745442009-02-11T09:35:00.000-05:002009-02-11T09:35:00.000-05:00>>What we lack is devotion to Magic the way ...>>What we lack is devotion to Magic the way the practitioners of the East devote lifetimes to mastering one aspect of transforming the "Energy" of the universe into a manifestation of their "Will."<BR/><BR/>You know, even if we assume the Eastern way is easier, I'd say it is far more isolated and limits experience. The East way lacks the social aspect of what more knowledgable and experienced beings can teach. You can learn a lot about a spirit by just playing cards or checkers with them and chatting. It's kinda like not letting yourself go experience a place firsthand and prefer to know of it via a travel guide. You can't know the feel, smell and taste of the area.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25882546.post-40939472877409679632009-02-11T08:16:00.000-05:002009-02-11T08:16:00.000-05:00>>What we lack is a group of people that hav...>>What we lack is a group of people that have done it and taught it to others.<BR/><BR/>This might be more of a more visible grouping. Both have groups that will explain things, but those of the WMT are just harder to find. But, both can be hard to get into and stay in.<BR/><BR/>>>What we lack is understanding of our own cultural esoteric traditions.<BR/><BR/>I've noticed a greater cultural diversity amongst the 'West' end of things than the 'East' and subvarients, too. If the East ones are more diverse, it doesn't seem as public.<BR/><BR/>>>What we lack is devotion to Magic the way the practitioners of the East devote lifetimes to mastering one aspect of transforming the "Energy" of the universe into a manifestation of their "Will."<BR/><BR/>From what I've seen, devotees of the East number in about the same range as those in the West with those that do it on a regular basis, are regularly successful and are sufficiently advance to be decent enough to have a good handle on how things work.<BR/><BR/>Besides, even if there are some things that seem to be missing from the WMT that are in the East stuff, look to roman catholicism. They have a spirit for everything you could think of, including selling homes. It just might not be as widely known.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com