Ok, so the last GD post was, admittedly, a little ... aggressive. The animosity comes entirely from my understanding of the Secret Chiefs of the Golden Dawn.See, I read The Secret Doctrine, and I thought the Chiefs that were being debunked by Nick and company, and the Secret Chiefs that David and company claim to have met were the Secret Chiefs who are supposed to be the Shepherds and Stewards of the spiritual evolution of the entire Western Civilization.
Turns out I was totally wrong-o.
So, if the GD is NOT, in fact, claiming they are the best of the best, the ideal Rosicrucians, and the outer face of the Secret Chiefs who are supposed to be overseeing and shepherding us all from a place of omniscient omnipotence, then they can have their Magician Cards back.
If they're willing to admit they're a bunch of Hermetic philosophers with some neat magical tech Working on becoming the best godmen they can be, and not the Gatekeepers of the True Mysteries of the ENTIRE Western Occult Tradition, then good on 'em. There's a big difference between "We have SOME awesome Western Hermetic Magic(k) going on over here" and "We have the ONLY TRUE awesome Western Hermetic Magic(k) ever."
The way I see it now, both sides are presenting realistic versions of what the Secret Chiefs are really all about based on their own understanding. They've got a lot more in common than I thought, and they could probably hash out all their differences over a beer or twelve, if they wanted to.
And for the rest of the Occult Community, please note that the Secret Chiefs are not omniscient omnipotent awesome advanced spiritual adepts with wisdom and power galore. They are just people, in the flesh, with a magical tradition going back to the first through third centuries, just like anyone else with an internet connection. They've got tech that's unpublished, but it's not completely different than anything you can find with careful applied studies of the publicly available source material (the stuff from the first through third centuries, not the GD stuff that's publicly available). They've got an initiatory structure, they're a Secret Society, ok, but they put their pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else.
I'd still like to see Nick and David face off with wands drawn at high noon, last magician standing wins. I'd stand proud next to the winner. But neither side is interested in nuking anyone to prove a point to me. Except Fr. VL, who is a real magician.
RO, you'er still not really *getting* the whole "Secret Chief" thing. SOME GD people think the Secret Chiefs are in the flesh (that includes David Griffin). SOME GD people think that the Secret Chiefs are disembodied, but not perfect. SOME GD people think the Secret Chiefs are omnipotent.
ReplyDeleteSOME GD people think the Secret Chiefs were just a method used by Mathers to keep his order in line.
Sorry RO, you rock generally, but you still don't know what you're talking about on this one.
I "get" it. I actually agree with Griffin and his take on the current alleged SCs. He's redefined them to fit the reality, and that's fine. I think he's as accurate as you can get about them, but he's still a douche about it.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with those who believe the SCs were a method used by Mathers to keep his order in line. At the time, that's what they all did to end arguments and quell the opposition, they produced letters allegedly from Koot Hoomi or whoever, claiming it just appeared and shit.
The disembodied Ascended Masters are the Powers I aspire to become, and that's cool. They're not omniscient or omnipotent. They should be shepherding outer order groups.
The point is, what pissed me off so badly was the misunderstanding that anyone involved in this happy horse shit that is the modern GD is operating under the false belief that DG's SCs are the omnipotent, omniscient, "Great White Brotherhood" of Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine.
So really, it's just an argument between philosophers, and both camps have their feet pretty firmly on the ground. BFD.
OK. I thought you were just getting taken in by what David Griffin says, as if he was some kind of unimpeachable source.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean, taken in by what he's said? What has he said that's wrong, when you look at it from his interpretation of the SCs?
ReplyDeleteAll the beliefs about the SCs are true in some sense, except maybe the ones who think they're omnipotent. Am I the only person on the planet who can see things from someone else's perspective?
Nick's got his fair points, so does Griffin. The real issue between them is both semantic and egotistical. "MY interpretation of the SCs is right, and yours is wrong, and an insult to right thinking Rosicrucians everywhere!"
Feh, you're all right a bit, and wrong a bit, and you'll figure out sooner or later I was right all along.
Look, RO, I get you, but what David Griffin says is not that the Secret Chiefs are the Secret Chiefs of *his* Order, but rather that they're the Secret Chiefs of *Everyone's* Rosicrucianism. While I totally respect his right to bow to whatever Secret Chiefs he sees fit, they're not mine. And I don't think it's reasonable to say they're the Secret Chiefs of the whole Golden Dawn.
ReplyDeleteHell, I believe there are disembodied Secret Chiefs of the Golden Dawn ("powers" as you would say), but I haven't met anyone who calls themselves Golden Dawn who has contacted them; personally speaking I can say I've experienced them (although not "contacted" them).
I don't know. I'm all verklempt about these issues and I probably shouldn't be. I don't want to be ruled by David Griffin's Secret Chiefs -- they seem like asses -- but I still want to be able to do Golden Dawn stuff... is that fair? Why can't I do that?
By the way, I'm not on Farrell's "side" or Morgan's "side" either. I'm an independent GD Practitioner, and it's part of an overall Rosicrucian practice. There are a LOT of people out there (I would say a majority) who say I can't do that, because the Secret Chiefs say so. I was just hoping you wouldn't be one of those people, frankly.
ReplyDeleteEvery single Order I've ever joined has told me I can't use any tech from any other Order, and I have to rely on the Order itself... I just can't do it. In one of our Masonic rituals it says of a Mason that "his stubborn knee bends for God alone, though the kings of the world bid him kneel." That's how I feel.
You do realize that the loathing toward DG is about his douchery and not philosophical differences. The Secret Chiefs are just the latest side show. Many think he just made the story up to give himself a sense of legitimacy and the GD doesn't even need Secret Chiefs. Most don't care what he thinks, if he would just stay out of other people's business.
ReplyDeleteGriffin did say on a post that the SCs chose his group to reveal themselves to and transmitted new magic to his group which Griffin said he was busy translating. He also said on his blog that The other groups must be envious of his group because of the SCs chosing his group which is why the other groups have been flaming his order.
ReplyDeleteI do like your take on the SCs. If everyone in DG believed that, there wouldn't be this whole pissing back and forth.
ReplyDeleteI know too many HOGD folk who have met the "secret chiefs" to write them off as a made up game. Bottom line, they met some people who impressed them, and they aren't easily impressed. So there it is. If he weren't such a d-bag, I'd be with him 100%, at least until Nick kills david with his superior magicks.
ReplyDeleteRufus - I made my last comment before I read this new post of yours. So at least you've finally gotten that "the GD" doesn't claim to be the be-all and end-all of Western Hermeticism. The GD only "claims" to be a system of spiritual alchemy and a school to prepare one to perform practical magick and/or enter the Inner Order. It's really that simple.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Secret Chiefs - Annon is right that you still don't get it. The concept of the Secret Chiefs comes from Blavatski - and she described them as disembodied ascended masters. Much as you see described about ascended masters in the East - because that's where Blavatski got the idea.
When the GD picked up the concept, they tended to switch between describing them as disembodied masters and as physical people from an older tradition that gave a warrent to open the GD. However, you may not be aware that the original adepts spoke to the Secret Chiefs via devices like the pendulum and a tilting table. (Influences from Spiritism.) That is a big red flag that the Secret Chiefs were NOT physical people.
Here's something else you probably don't know. In the Inner Order (and this is all published), one learns that all the spirits, angels and Gods we call in our magick are - in fact - considered to be members of the Order. (That's why we exchange grade signs with them to test them.) Also, the original adepts accepted the idea that the Golden Dawn ultimately belongs to the Archangel Raphael.
Dude, THOSE are the Secret Chiefs! They are gods and archangels, and perhaps also past masters of the system like Mathers, Westcott, Regardie, etc. Anyone who claims they talk to these guys on the phone is telling you a lie, plane and simple.
RO,
ReplyDeleteAre you saying some of those people actually met Griffin's Secret Chiefs? From his blog posts I thought it seemed like he was acting as their mouthpiece and translating the documents he received. Interesting if other people actually did meet them.
-Anonymous 3rd party
@anon, yeah, they are real people, and they are also the same Italians that he said were Stregha last year when he was selling the Great Rite. Frater Barabas talks about meeting them in his comments on his blog post defending DG.
ReplyDelete@RO,
ReplyDeleteOk, so, just to be clear... You are saying that DG has met the secret chiefs, and so therefore anyone who wishes to do real Golden Dawn work must either i) meet Griffin's people himself, or ii) join Griffin's group?
In other words, you're saying that me, Nick Farrell, Pat Zalewski, Chic and Sandra Cicero, Morgan, and all the other Golden Dawn members who think Griffin is full of it are not "real" Golden Dawn members?
I ask because it really seems like that's what you're saying... Deciding Griffin's version of the secret chiefs is real is not just understanding his point of view... It necessarily means that everyone else's view is wrong.
Hi Rufus
ReplyDeleteDoes that raise red flags to you that they are the same people as the hidden stegha coven? I read Frater Barabas's blog; well kind of, he gets verbose and I end up skimming the last half of his posts. I was surprised that someone intelligent as he would be defending Griffin, it did cause me to reconsider the evidence. But the outcome of the reconsideration was the same - it doesn't add up.
I have met 'impressively' magical people before. They don't have to be a secret chief to be impressive. Probably the most impressive was a Santeria priest who seemed to know everything about me and in a meeting with him you seemed to enter into a different world. He had more mojo than Carlos Castaneda who I also briefly met him and the 3 witches.
But I am not easily impressed with extraordinary claims that can't be proven. We seem to have some proof that his secret chiefs are real people. We don't know if they can shoot blue flames out their ass and fly around the room though. And we don't know if they are in a real organization that has been around for a 100 or more years. And we don't know if they had anything whatsoever to do with the original GD.
It just feels like a lie to me. But really, I'm with some of the other posters, I don't care what goes on inside Griffin's order as long as he stops attacking other orders that don't believe what he does. I am not in the Golden Dawn, but I have studied a lot of the material. I am more of a buffet type magician, picking from here and there, yet trying to form my own internally coherent system. (I also bought and use your Jupiter ritual) I find the GD most useful for the armchair knowledge than their rituals - which can't really be done without a group. I'm not jealous of anything Griffin's group may have with their claims since that is not my path even if it is valid. I just don't like what appears to be a bully and a con man.
You seem to want a high noon showdown between the major feuding parties. The GD isn't the best place to find that kind of magic. Talk to that Santeria priest for some fireworks :)
@Anon:
ReplyDelete"Ok, so, just to be clear... You are saying that DG has met the secret chiefs, and so therefore anyone who wishes to do real Golden Dawn work must either i) meet Griffin's people himself, or ii) join Griffin's group?"
Fuck no, I'm not saying that at all. You have all the reading comprehension skills of Fr. POS.
I'm saying that within David Griffin's context and definition of the Secret Chiefs, he's met them and they're real. Semantically speaking, "real Secret Chiefs."
How does that make you wrong and him right? You're taking a very black and white view here. Hasn't magic taught you that there are contexts, frameworks within which things are true that are not true or relevent in other contexts?
Goetic Magicians believe the Demons of the Grimorium Verum aren't demons (fallen angels who rebelled agaisnt God and were cast to Earth/Hell as punishment), just the elemental hierarchy of spirits arrayed under the Four Kings of the chthonic underworld. Not evil, not good, just powerful, dangerous, and useful to the intrepid sorcerer. They conjure up Lucifuge Rofocale and interact with him a lot differently than I would, coming from my Hermetic Christian framework. Are they wrong? Am I right? No. We have different interpretations that make sense in our respective contexts.
David's redefined the Secret Chiefs to fit what he's found. I believe the Italians have some advanced Hermetic practices that they've kept alive in their Secret Society. I do not believe those practices are better, or all that different from the stuff you can find online for free at www.esotericarchives.com.
I think asking if anyone can do "real GD Work" is a lot like asking if Baptists, Catholics, or Pentecostals do "real Christian Work." There are multiple denominations of the golden dawn now. There is no monolithic GD that has the same beliefs about the SCs anymore. Some interpretations are historically accurate, some are based on personal experiences with invisible companions, and some are based on living people.
@RO
ReplyDelete"Fuck no, I'm not saying that at all. You have all the reading comprehension skills of Fr. POS."
Hey man, sorry I didn't understand you, but it was just that -- a misunderstanding. No need to get hostile.
Continuing:
ReplyDeleteSome interpretations are historically accurate, some are based on personal experiences with invisible companions, and some are based on living people.
All of these interpretations influence the practices within the Orders, and how they interact with one another. The Orders have structured their rites around their interpretation of the Secret Chiefs, to varying degrees.
As a result, within each Order, the experiences of the magicians performing the rites will tend to support the interpretation of the Chiefs. It's like the light wavicle experiments, if you structure the experiment to prove light is a particle, you get evidence to support the idea that it's a particle. If you structure the experiment to prove light is a wave, you get evidence to support the idea that it's a wave.
Within the context that needs to see light as a wave, it is a wave. Within the context that needs to see light as a particle, it is a particle.
So all these interpretations, even though they seem mutually exclusive, are still valid within their own context. DG's SCs are the SCs to him and his group. The angels and gods and spirits are valid Secret Chiefs in Aaron's context. (I hadn't realized the GD claimed all the spirits ever as members in their lodge; the hubris is hilarious.) In groups that think the SCs were all made up, their lack of belief is as equally valid in their own context.
Because ultimately the magic works, right?
There's a commercial on the local rock radio station that says, "Men, what do you think of when you hear the word "snip"? An operation "down there"? You're right!" It drives me nuts. There's no wrong answer to "What do you think?"
What you think may or may not be true, but that's determined by the results of actions made based on what you think. The magicians in the various Orders get the results they desire in their Work.
I agree with Deanna, David's a douche and a cyber bully for trying to tell everyone he's right and they're wrong.
But all the GD orders with their different takes on the SCs have downgraded themselves publicly. None of them are claiming to be the Rosicrucian Ideal.
I'm not a GD guy, though I've read a lot of their stuff. I personally "don't have a dog in this fight."
ReplyDeleteThe last thing you say though R.O. seems about right to me. Sounds to me very similar to the kinds of arguments I hear among Christian denominations.
Note I am NOT saying GD is a Christian denomination, just that the arguments sound similar: whose theology is right, who has true apostolic succession, etc.
And we aren't even talking about Protestant vs. Catholic kinds of arguments, I hear the same kind of thing between various Lutheran or Baptist factions about "those other guys" being wrong, and each is absolutely certain at least some of those other guys aren't really Christian or are going to hell.
So maybe a Baptist might say a Catholic isn't really Christian (which I've heard them say) or a Catholic say that Protestants are heretics.
On the other hand, a Muslim would say they are all Christian infidels, right?
Then bring in some polytheists or animists and it gets real interesting.
And atheists would say all religions are delusional, right?
Reminds me of that old Sesame Street song, "That's about the size of it..."
@Anon, that wasn't hostile. That was irritated. I get annoyed when people can't see past their own notions to understand what I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteI'm not obligated to be nice about anything. I try to be most of the time, but today I'm not feeling it.
I'm really not feeling very compassionate at the moment. I'm still a bit ranty and will most likely continue to be offensive for the rest of the day, maybe the rest of the week.
I refer you to my profile statement, this is not a bullshit free zone, this is the RO bullshit zone. If you don't want to get any on you, don't play with me, especially when I'm feeling froggy.
@RO
ReplyDelete"I'm not obligated to be nice about anything. I try to be most of the time, but today I'm not feeling it."
That's fine, it's your blog and you have a right to be however you want -- I'm just reacting 'cause I didn't like it. I get the feeling from you that you're grown up enough to get that.
@RO - The thing to remember is that Griffin is not Golden Dawn. He does not speak for the Golden Dawn Community, no matter how much he states to the otherwise.
ReplyDeleteGriffin and his kind have for the last 15+ years torn at the GD Community from the OUTSIDE. They have wanted to control it for their own purposes.
This includes the recent rhetoric concerning the SCs. I can assure you that the SCs that Griffin claims are not over "all" the Golden Dawn. They are just those that Griffin uses for his own purposes for his own organization.
There are others within the Golden Dawn that have and ARE Working within the Golden Dawn Tradition that should such people as the SC's that Griffin claims reveal themselves, they would not have revealed themselves to Griffin.
I applaud Griffin for his marketing technique of claiming the SCs, but just do not see it personally. I also doubt that the other GD Orders that are doing the Work within the Tradition are "jealous" of Mr. Griffin and his organization. They are not, but are rather busy doing the requisite Work within the Tradition itself.
Just because Griffin is rather vocal about his claims does not make them true. Same can be said of others. As someone like Manly P. Hall once stated about outrageous claims of occult organizations and people, it is best to get away from them as fast as possible. This common sense advice applies here (and other places as well).
I respect the fact that there are differing views concerning the SCs. That is fine. But just because one person claims to be in contact with them, does not mean those are the SCs of the GD Tradition. More likely they are the SCs for that particular organization, contrary to what is being stated publicly.
In LVX,
Samuel
Sam,
ReplyDeleteYou haven't read the comments, huh.
Hey RO,
ReplyDeleteWhen are you getting back to the "regular program". My jaws hurt from yawning so much. I could really give a rats ass about these pinheads arguing over how many angels can dance on the edge of a silicon wafer.
For the record: I think the SC are ascended masters, and they come to the aid of any mystic/magician who needs them. Rosicrucianism is another word for Western mysticism. The Ascended Masters are interested in the evolution of the entire race They're kind of like the saints in the Catholic church.
Scrib, So bored, but you can't help but talk a little bit about it.
ReplyDeleteSee? It sucks you in. Like a ... vortex or something. If your lucky someone will throw you a life line.
Thanks, yo.
Those who try to conflate the Secret Chiefs of the AO with Stregheria are just up to their usual Witch Hunt bs.
ReplyDeleteI have said over and over that the two traditions have nothing to do with one another.
As much as I dislike you, RO, you seem to be one of the only people who is not deliberately being selectively deaf on this subject.
The Secret Chiefs of the AO are guardians of ancient Egyptian, Hermetic, and Rosicrucian tech. They are interested in the same thing they have always been intereested in - transmitting this tech under very specific traditional conditions. The conditionsl have been the same for centuries.
No one claims to lord over any other GD order. We have our hands full with out own, thank you.
We have even, however, offered to even share the advanced tech with the other GD orders, and have also already discretely even done so on an individual basis.
It is not my personality that is interesting or even the AO itself.
It is the advanced TECH that is highly interesting as is attested to by all those who have come into contact with it.
David, are you saying the secret Chiefs of the AO are not the Italians you brought to Pantheacon for the Great Rite stuff last year? They are, in fact, different people, and not the members of the same secret society?
ReplyDeleteThat is correct. I have said this over and over in numerous places on my blog. I have also criticized those who deliberately attempt to conflate the two over and over.
ReplyDeleteThe only point of contact between the two traditions is that I am personally an initiate of both.
The Alpha et Omega and the Shamanic-Pagan Traditon of the Sacred Forest of Nemi are completely separate and fully unrelated traditions.
There are, sadly, however, people who have a vested interest in continuing to attempt to conflate the two traditions in order to malign the AO.
It is this sort of nonsense that i criticize as Fundamentalist Witch Hunt behavior.
The AO fully embraces diversity in the GD community. We have no interest in lording over Nick, Zalewksi, or anyone else.
We just want to be left alone to transmit advanced tech from our Secret Chiefs, which is some pretty astounding stuff.
Sadly, there are those with a Fundamentalist mentality who can not stand that there is diversity in the Golden Dawn community. The GD Fundies have been attacking the AO with deliberate and intentional misrepresentations like this conflation for 20+ years now, merely because the AO refuses to become one of thier McGoldenDawn franchises.
Yes, yes, you're such the persecuted martyr, you've mentioned it a couple times that i've noticed.
ReplyDeleteI can't quite believe they are as separate as you claim. I do not think you are lying, per se, but I strongly suspect a loophole is being exploited. Maybe one day i'll have the opportunity to meet them myself. I hear they are very compelling in person.
Actually, I am not at all a persecuted martyr. I am just a guy who does not stand for bullying. I never have.
ReplyDeleteTrying to portray me as a persecuted martyr is just another attack tactic from the Fundies, just like trying to conflate unrelated traditions, and like trying to misportray the various McGoldenDawn(TM) franchises as though they were the whole Golden Dawn community.
In reality, the actual Golden Dawn community is much larger than the McGD(TM) franchises even know. There are traditionalist Golden Dawn orders that operate completely underground, as is TRADITIONAL. Considering the nonsense I have to put up with because of being so public, I think they are right to stay uderground as well.
I'd be happy to introduce you to the "del Bosco Sacro di Nemi" elders some day. I didn'tt realize you were also interested in Paganism or Shamanism though. I though you were exclusively a ceremonial magician.
My own spiritual interests are quite wide.
@David
ReplyDeleteMa gavte la nata.
David, I was talking to one of my friends last night about the role of shamanism in a practicing Hermetic Magician's life. He was telling me I'm basically doing everything shamans are supposed to do, and I was like, well, yeah, it's magic. I think all forms of magic are sourced on the basic shamanic template. You go to another world, you commune with the entities there, and you return with the benefits of what you learned from your spirit friends, and the assistance of the allies from the other side you've made.
ReplyDeleteThat's the blueprint of all Western Magic. I don't call what I do shamanism out of respect for the actual tradition of Shamanism. It refers to the beliefs and practices of a specific tribe from the steppes of Asia, if I remember right, somewhere in Russia.
I don't pretend I'm a hoodoo priest, even though after years of work with the angels I do a lot of stuff that looks just like hoodoo. It would be a misrepresentation.
Likewise, I think calling what I do shamanism would be an insult to shamans.
And I'm a neoplatonist. Pagan gods are manifestations of the same Source as the Governors of the planets I work with. As a Christian, I firmly agree with Paul, that all the gods ofthe pagans are Daimons, i.e., spiritual emanations and emissaries from the Source, the First Father. Not demons, the way the modern Church interprets that scripture, but messengers of god whose message is their essence, the thing they are gods of. Like Poseidon is the God of the Ocean, he is the manifestation of the Idea "Ocean" and all it means in the mind of the First Father, the way I see it. I'm comfortable working with any manifestation of God. We're all family, after all.
But I don't want to meet the elders of the sacred grove of Nemi (no offense), I want to meet the Secret Chiefs, and talk Hermetic theory and practice.
@ Rufus Opus
ReplyDeleteHmmm. Interesting. The word shamanism has taken on a different meaning today due primarily to the work of Michael Harner. The point is that when you go far back enough in time, you find the same sort of patterns like you find in Siberia in cultures all across the world.
You also find it in the ancient spiritual practice of the Great Mother goddess on the Italic peninsula prior to the arrival of the Patriarchical pantheon.
In English, we call the Sacred Forest tradition Shamanic-Paganism so that it will not be confused with the Neo-Pagan tradition associated with the word "Stregheria." The two traditions could not be more different from one another.
David,
ReplyDeleteHave you read Jake Stratton-Kent's Geosophia? It explores the depths of the shamanic practices of the Goes across that part of the world in depth, reaching back to the shadowed times before the intelligentsia turned the practices of the proto-Hermetics into anything resembling the neo-platonic cosmology we use today. Fascinating stuff in there about the sibyls and the honored dead, the Heroes of divine and mortal natures, and the role of the "underworld" before it was turned into a place of punishment or torment.
I have heard interesting stuff about Jake Stratton-Kent's work. Sadly, between the black time hole of reputation defense of our order and translating the avalanche of magical and alchemical transmissions for the R.R.et A.C. from the Secret Chiefs, as well as my own magical and internal alchemical practice, I have no time left over for published works.
ReplyDeleteSomeday, though ...
That's why god invented bowel movements. To catch up on your reading. I would never have made it through all three books of occult philosophy without bowel movements.
ReplyDeleteFrater RO, I love ya man, but you consistently read things into my posts that just aren't there.
ReplyDeleteI did not say that "all Gods and spritis ever" are members of the G.D. I was referring specifcally to the Gods and spirits that we call upon *within our Tradition.* I'm sorry if I thought that was a given. You can't honestly think I believe that, for example, the African lwa are members of the GD Tradition?
If I use a G.D. ceremony to call upon Raphael, then I'm dealing with an entity that is a member of the Tradition. Hence I exchange Grade Signs and Passwords with him just as if I were dealing with a fellow human member of my Order. He will also appear within a GD context, with GD colors and symbols, etc. (I think you, Frater, were the one going on about context - right?)
On the other hand, if I call Raphael through purely Solomonic methods without reference to the GD system, then I don't need the recognition signs, and he's not necessarily going to show up in yellow and purple robes. Get it?
LVX
Aaron
Dear Rufus,
ReplyDeleteHere are direct statements by Mathers.
"After this Fra. H. was conducted by an Eagle-headed messenger into the presence of the Angel R + [Raphael] (whom I, S'Rioghail Mo Dhream, know by the motto L[ux] e T[enebris])"
Also note that Mathers does not say he had ever contacted the Chiefs as if the Chiefs were in the flesh. He noted that he saw them with his Physical or waking Eyes but they had appeared "astrally" i.e. "the rendevous was made astrally by them" and the appointment was made "astrally".
"I have but very rarely seen them in the physical body; and on such rare occasions the rendezvous was made astrally by them at the time and place which had been astrally appointed beforehand."
However, to be fair (something Mr Griffin does not engage in), there is also the "hidden hand" concept... but that was more involved with TS and HB of L, and Spiritist Circles...
I do not see connection per se with the Isiac, Egypt-Osirian, and Egyptian Orders some may infer... These groups used a process wherein one's soul is "alchemically separated" and then replaced with a "Superior's Soul" in atavaric fashion via the A.'.A.'..Usually a process grossly misinterpreting the actual paradigm taught to Cagliostro by Falk.
Regards,
Olen
Sorry for the follow up post, I simply reposted to check the follow-up button.
ReplyDelete