Sunday, January 13, 2013

The Guru Trip

Around the borders of the Tartarean abode flows a river, the waters of which completely erase memories. Lethe, this river is called, and here the wounds and ills of lifetimes are washed from the battered and bruised souls who seek its embrace.

I would give the secret of the Philosopher's Stone* for a culture-sized dose that I could administer to the entire Western occult audience. That's you, I'm talking about. I want to steal your memories, erase them, take them away entirely, unlearn ye wee bastards of anything and everything you've ever heard about enlightenment and being a guru, whether it's of Western or Eastern origin, focused on the Great Work, or Meditation, or Rajayoga, or Tantra, or whatever the motherfuck.

Because it's all bullshit. Total and complete bullshit.

Jason wrote a neat piece on States and Stages the other day, and as he says in his response to the Formspring question about my mental stability, we talk on the phone about shit fairly frequently. We had already had the State and Stage conversation, a couple times.

What bothers people about hearing "we are gods" or "I have accomplished the Great Work"?

You read through it, and it's all about the idea that someone is at an enlightened state, happy all the time, and life doesn't suck for them ever anymore.

It's that. That bothers people.

Because that can't be. That just can't be true. We know because we see it every day, right?

And 10,000 years of written history backs it up. The super advanced mystics of every culture on the planet have written what it's all about, and how to tell if someone's really got it, that is, GOT IT! And they talk about humility and knowing how much more there is to know, and never claiming any achievement, and never bragging about it.

I will tell you the truth, having crossed the alleged abyss**, having created the Stone***, having attained K&CHGA****, I can tell you the absolute truth, the TRVTH even:

Nobody is a guru! There are no enlightened masters. There is no Philosopher's Stone*****. Everything you ever learned about Hierophants is bullshit. Nobody knows shit. Nobody ever has. Plato, Aristotle, Hermes Thrice Great, Jesus Christ, Siddartha, they didn't know shit. They would be happy to tell you so in person, I swear to everything that pretends to be God!

Their protestations get drowned out, especially after they die. Living people get to say whatever the hell they want to about the teachings of the Masters when they're dead, when there's the temple/church/sanctuary fund to fill! And you believe it. Because it would be really awesome if someone were really perfect, wouldn't it!? If someone actually got it and made it out, enlightened, and fucking happy!? That would be awesome!

Just sayin'. Don't hate me. It's just time to cut the shit.

In real life, the Stone will not make you live an extra 312 years. Most recipes for the Stone will fucking kill you, like they did Regardie. He's a smart fella who is recent enough to check the facts and have a decent understanding.

Most of the Golden Dawn folks who founded the traditions we are so fond of today died of cancer. Because of the Abramelin rites on their bookshelves? Maaaaaayyyyybbbbbbeeeeeeee... Or maybe because they all smoked like fucking chimneys. The world may never know.

Actually, we do know. We know better. Because we have access to facts. Blavatsky was insane. Gurdjieff? Nuts. Rudolph Steiner? Batshit. Aleister Crowley? Ok, dude had his fucking moments, eh? I mean honestly. He rocked. Brilliant. Fucking honest as shit. Saw eternity. Put it into words. Made fun of you for not getting it. I love Aleister.

The rest of 'em, whether it's Hermes, Peter, Paul, Mahmoud or St. John of Patmos, or Hizzonah 007 John Dee himself.. They can all suck my metaphoric dick******! Especially that also-brilliant French bastard Levi. Call those the paths of the Tarot*******!? Shah, right!

In real life, no one is happy all the time. There are spiritual masters that walk the Earth with us who are super advanced, who radiate a force of god-ness that they have developed by eliminating the things that block them from being that in their daily lives. You stand in their presence, and you feel something cool.

They have bad days too, and they don't talk about how advanced they are because they know how far they have to go.

Rest comfy in that warm and fuzzy reality, boys and girls! Enlightened masters have lives that suck sometimes! Awesome!

Right?

Fuck all that. Here's some uncomfortable truth:

I have the power and experience to create a life that never sucks. And I will not do it.

Neither will my sweet lover, the brilliant and accomplished Harper. Or the incredible Jason Miller, though he can. Neither will Harold Roth, or Jack Flash. Or Deborah Castellano. Or her main man Jow, or her non-main-man Gordon. Andy won't do it, and neither will 4ndy, or Polyphanes, though he's cool as shit. The people I love the most won't do it, no matter how much they think they want to, because deep down, way deep down...

None of us are really ready to give it up. The passion, the drama, the awesomeness of existence with unknown consequence. Nobody wants to live a perfect life. Fucking boring as shit, that. We play for fun.

[Author's note: That above part is wrong somehow. Suffering is an indicator that you need to fix something. Suffering is not fun.We don't do it on purpose, even if we can appreciate its role in our lives. In my opinion, that would be a sickness that needs healing. Having an aesthetic appreciation for a thing is not the same as desiring its manifestation in your life. This part needs more thought. Proactive creation of a not-shitty life is, after all, sort of the whole fucking goal, so we can enjoy life.]

Sadness creates a more tender heart, not a tougher heart. Ask any romantic. We learn joy from sadness, and joy... that's what it's all about. We appreciate a job that lets us be ourselves after we've had jobs that did not. We appreciate lovers who love us for who we are instead of who they wish we were. We appreciate pain because it becomes the salt that makes the cookies sweeter. It makes our subjective standards about existence meaningful. It makes life fun.

I would take from you everything you know about the Guru Trip, if I could. Because it's bullshit. It gives us false expectations, all of us, whether we see ourselves as gurus or students. States and stages, it's all bullshit.When Mr. Grim comes calling, we're all honored, and ready for what comes next, deep down. And that... that's beautiful.

And, for the record, you're a living god, enjoying the shit you wade through. If you're not happy, change that shit... if you want to. It's totally your life, and you can hit the reset button any time, at the beginning or the end. The "chain of manifestation," that's just a gimmick, a method, a map, a tool that works. Use it or don't.

But have fun, no matter whether it seems like something a guru should enjoy or not. Because the guru trip... it's just a trip that gurus take, and non-gurus take.

If they want to.

Totally not necessary for life, and the enjoyment thereof********.

* It's not that big of a secret. There are a fuckton of free recipes for it at Adam Mclean's Alchemy Web Site. Get gold from ore. Make vermilion paint out of mercury sulfate (cinnabar). Extract the sulfur, mercury, and salt from a plant with grain alcohol, mix 'em together and have yourself a tincture. ffs.

** It's a myth, it's just thinking you know anything, skip that and you're fine. ffs.

*** And ground it into powder and made a tincture that I drink before doing heavy magical lifting that makes me a huge fucking magical Beast when I consume it. ffs.

**** K&C doesn't make you an enlightened master, it's the beginning of a relationship with the only MASTER you will EVAR NEED. You just don't get the punchline til the joke is over.  ffs.

***** There totally IS a Stone. I'm just making a point. Metaphorically. ffs.

******  Not Jesus though, because of the beard. Facial hair: total turnoff.  ffs.

******* Honestly, not bad, not bad. I got nothing better, fer sure.

******** For fuck's sake. (FFS)

35 comments:

  1. I honestly say this all the time. It's why I can't get into Buddhism because I don't *want* to give up suffering. I love the sturm und drang. I love the anguish. I love the anger. I love all of it. Life is too small and too *boring* without it. I don't want to be a higher being, I don't want to ascend. I love all of this life too much.

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  2. I don't think we'd learn much if everything went perfectly the way we want it all the time. And I, for one, would not like to suddenly stop learning.

    I must say the RO Rants are interesting as always.

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  3. I'm Deb's non-main-man and I endorse this message.

    (PaidforbymymanymistakesthegoodpeopleatTaliskerandthehumbleevidenceofmylimitedsenses.)

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  4. You shut your mouth, blasphemer. How dare you speak ill of beards? A long and luxurious beard is man's crowning glory, and the truest sign of having accomplished the Great Work.

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  5. I love a good Sunday Sermon, heck all of RO's sermons are good any day of the week.

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  6. Yes, yes, yes on almost all of this. Except the comment about facial hair being a total turn-off. Maybe for (or on) you; some of us like men with facial hair.

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  7. Skimmed the part about the beard.

    But then, watching a BBC4 documentary about art in the Dark Ages, they make the point he only acquired the beard about 150 years afterward. Before that he was... well, he was kinda twinky.

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  8. Now I'm really lost, just what the hell is happening in the interwebs? It sounds like I missed the real apocalypse.

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  9. I actually agree with about 80% of what you are saying here. There is 10 percent where I think you don't go far enough, and another 10% where I completely disagree.

    Take it piece by piece:

    ON GURUS:

    I pretty much agree on all this. Coming from a system where the Guru is important, there is so much to cut through that I would never wish it on us. Elders, yes. Peer input, double yes! But perfect Gurus? No.

    ON FINAL ENLIGHTENMENT AND PERFECTION:

    Again, I completely agree with you. I do not even believe in such a thing.

    ON STATES AND STAGES AND THE PATH:

    The fact that there is no perfect being and perhaps no final enlightenment does not mean that there is no vector to head in. The path may be endless, but it is still a path to betterment as people, as species, and as life itself.

    You yourself have passed through stages to a better place, so why say that it is Bullshit? There ARE improvements to be made for all of us. There ARE people who have made some of these improvements. What is wrong with seeking out someone that is a few stages ahead of you and learning from them? You are one of those people!

    ON WHAT BOTHERS PEOPLE ABOUT HEARING "I HAVE ACCOMPLISHED THE GREAT WORK"?

    The term "The Great Work" is a lot more loaded than "K&C of HGA" or Rigpa or Crossing the Abyss or any other term that has a specific reference and meaning. Why does it bother?
    1. It implies a finality of the work. You don't mean it that way, but people cannot help but read it that way. Because of this, it is an almost useless term.
    2. If you don't mean it as a finality of the work (which you have stated that you do not) then why use it at all? What is the benefit of telling people that you have accomplished "the great work"? Letting them know that "it" can be done? That's all well and good but you are simultaneously saying that its not really a big deal, which kind of opens up "well if the great work is not the great work, than what is the great work?". People can look at their lives and see "yeah I have a lot of work to do".
    3. It bothers me because I have known people that have made such claims and they always end up looking like a jackass in the end. I love you like a brother and would hate to see it.
    4. I don't know. I list this separately because clearly this time it does bother me more than when I have encountered it in the past. That has more to do with me than with you and I am mulling it over.


    ON NOBODY KNOWING SHIT BUT CROWLEY

    There are no fully enlightened masters but that does not mean that there are no elders and teachers and people with useful information. Just because there are no fully enlightened masters who are perfect all the time, does not mean that there are not people who are MORE realized and happier more of the time regardless of external circumstance. I know that there are. I have met them. Not being fully and completely perfected does not translate into nobody knows shit.

    As to Crowley, I love the dude and agree with you on his worth, but me, I'll take Gurdjieff any day. He is actually more in line with what you are talking about here anyway.


    ON THE NECESSITY OF SUFFERING AND THE IMPERFECTION OF LIFE

    I am with you completely here. In fact, I will do you one better. We are all here because the universe itself wants entertainment. Just as we watch people go through suffering and dire situations in book and on TV that we would never want to undergo ourselves, the universe is the way it is because otherwise it would just be boring. I realize that I am VERY un-buddhist in this, but I let go of that a long time ago. When it comes to the meaning of life I am much more about the divine being immanent in the material world and the goings on. I am closer to the Taoists and Heathens. Use that shit to grow and become master of your world.

    To quote the Sugarcubes: "You should use the pain and sorrow
    To fill you up with power, Life's both sweet and sour!"

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  10. Jason, I think we're on the same page. :)

    States and Stages are useful ways to think about spiritual attainment, that's not bullshit.

    The predefined expectations of what someone who has accomplished the Great Work will look like, that's bullshit, based on thoughts, not experience.

    It's time to explore what it really means in practice. What it's like to actually be a mad magician, a living god. Blow up the expectations and do it and see what happens in the real world, not what people who read about magic think, but what it really is.

    Think about how actual K&CHGA is compared to what you expected it to be based on the OTO/AA teachings about it. There's a big gap. Expectations keep people from attaining K&C because they think, this can't be it...

    That's what I want to get away from. The false expectations.

    It's not bullshit to have mentors, you're one of mine. I enjoy that a lot.

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  11. I completely agree with all that, yes.

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  12. Well, except the Living God bit. I HATE that term.

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  13. Stop capitalizing it, lower case "g" god. ;)

    I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High."-Psalm 82:6

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  14. The reason I think this is defeatist is because it implies there is no point at all at a very fundamental level. I would argue there is only point. Deny infinity or deny finity.

    Guru means teacher and there are lots of teachers. You are some of them. I see some of you achieving an advanced state and you shouldn't completely dismiss it. This emerges from a politically correct relationship with power. Its not a valid source, and its been acquired.

    Everyone is uncomfortable with power its natural and its dangerous too but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it for white magick. It is time to bring medicine back to the forefront of the operation.

    Also there are ascended masters. Ruachs that achieve a very advanced state linger for some time (--> 1000s of years). Shakespeare, Saadia, Sokrates. They are accessible and they do bring knowledge and enlightenment.

    I understand that life will always be ups and downs but ultimately it is pure undifferentiated consciousness always. There is no reason you shouldn't attempt to handle it all stoically and towards medicinal goals. Alleviate suffering. I know it defines you, I know we'll all die, but we also won't (!) and never did, and attachment to suffering is that - attachment. What do you really need to 'learn'?

    That passage on G4J came from a question for insight from the maggid. There is something to this that cannot be defeated, that's love. It is the only thing that the will is for - but love love love - not desire. A lot of what you condemn the gurus for as imperfection is only that. There is nothing imperfect, if you are asking that from a moral perspective. There are strangers in this strange land and we, to quote Empedocles, are exiles here torn away from love by wicked strife. Let us not forget our roots. Happiness is within you, its where we all come from.

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  15. Actually I think it is closer to big G then little g.

    The reason I don't like the term is what people read into it.

    I don't think we all create our own reality. In fact we create so little of our own reality it is laughable. We BARELY create our own thoughts about reality, much less that reality itself.

    I don't think we all could just opt out of suffering if we wanted, just like that.

    I don't think its useful to tell people to act like they are gods before they have the tools in place to make it real.

    I DO think that consciousness is a building block of reality itself, and that in as much as that is true, we are inherently God.

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  16. I just fell in love.

    Dammit, this is wonderful!

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  17. Blogos, you get the core so well, and totally miss everything else. Agreed it's all love love love, but your points of contention seem incredibly dense.

    The fundamental point is experience. The specific experience of the creation and maintenance (and ultimate destruction) of the details and situations in the material world.

    There is no reason to deny the finite or the infinite, they are meaningless in the moment, and meaningless when "the moment" passes.

    How many caveats have been written about what a chela should expect a guru to be? How many unwritten cultural expectations do people have in their minds when they look for a spiritual teacher? You don't measure up to a lot of people's standards when it comes to being a guru, actor. Yet you have some of the most important lessons to teach people, if they can get past your acerbic instinctual urge to fight about everything.

    Politically correct relationship with power? I tell people they are the priest kings of their worlds, the ultimate source of their experiences, the final authority on what shit they will put up with. I even tell people they are the creator gods of their lives. Do you even read?

    And yes, medicine. Projection phase of the Work. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Quit worrying about what you think happens in the creation of the Stone to its creator, and drink the tonic. What I'm saying is a modernized overly wordy rewrite of the simple, "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations.

    And learning isn't the point of suffering, suffering fucking sucks. Why don't we create lives that don't suck? For fun? Hmmm.

    Let me think about this, something's off in the pudding.

    In point of fact, I don't believe that. I know that I (and my cohorts) don't make a perfect life, and I know that the things I know should empower me to do so if I would just do it.

    I also know I do not just do it. I do some stuff here and there to varying degrees, and then when things are going great, I let things slide and enjoy the ride. Like skateboarding, pushpushpush, gliiiiiiide. As long as it isn't too bad, I go along with it, content to let come what may. I make adjustments as I deem necessary. If things get bad I change 'em. But I'm not proactively creating a non-suffering life all the time. Mostly because I get distracted on the gliiiide...

    Suffering teaches joy, and joy is the point, so suffering is ok, like salt in the cookies. That part is true, but is too much like a platitude. Suffering is primarily the thing that tells you something is the fuck wrong, so fix it.

    Hmm... Ok. Position refined.

    I do agree that love is within, but I do not agree that we are exiles torn away by strife at all. I believe we incarnated for the sake of love, on purpose. That key difference between us will remain.

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  18. Jason, I agree we only create a laughable amount of our own reality. That's the problem, and I got the solution. I also have the tools and the method that worked for me.

    I also saw EA Koetting's living god stuff, and ... yeah.

    I had some PRG about the flow of the quintessence into forms and the way words are the structures that are filled with that fluid, and that the magic I do is basically the "Wording Way" and I thought "Wyrding Way" because I'm a huge Dune fan, but I don't know what the psychic real estate is on that phrase in general.

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  19. "I tell people they are the priest kings of their worlds, the ultimate source of their experiences, the final authority on what shit they will put up with. I even tell people they are the creator gods of their lives."

    I think this is, for me, where the problem lies.

    People are not the Priest Kings of their world, the final authority of what the put up with and definately not the creator gods of their lives. In fact, they are not even the creators of 99.9999999999% of what they think about their lives.

    It is in this that you drift into the world of "The Secret" and such.

    50% of the human beings on planet earth are not living off less than 3 dollars a day because they are not "being priest kings enough". In fact, they can do all the work that they describe and still be in terrible circumstance because while they have grown and managed to effect their reality more than the people around them, the circumstances of life that were not determined by them will simply not allow it.

    If someone shoots you in the face while mugging you, it is not your failure as a priest king, nor is it your choice to suffer. Its just a sucky thing.

    As for the Guru/Master thing, you have a choice:

    1. Call yourself a Master or God or whatever you want, but lower the bar and manage the expectation of what that means.

    2. DON'T CALL YOURSELF THAT. Call yourself an Elder, Teacher, a Guide, whatever.

    The reasons are multiple:

    1. There are people, and spirits, and other types of entities who are WAY further along in power and knowledge than we are. Even though they are not perfect, they are way further along.

    2. Even if that were not the case, why claim the title? Why not hold it out as inspiration and goal rather than lower the bar?

    3. Claiming such titles almost always makes you look silly. Alan Chapman wrote some good stuff, and honestly continues to write some go9od stuff, but its hard to take him seriously when he is making Youtube videos complaining that people are not impressed that he has attained enlightenment.

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  20. Jason, I can't disagree with you more about this:

    50% of the human beings on planet earth are not living off less than 3 dollars a day because they are not "being priest kings enough". In fact, they can do all the work that they describe and still be in terrible circumstance because while they have grown and managed to effect their reality more than the people around them, the circumstances of life that were not determined by them will simply not allow it.

    I have worked with too many people from Nepal, Guatemala, Chile, China, Vietnam, Korea, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Pakistan, all over Eastern Europe, and the most backwater inbred states of India to think for a second that this is true. I have not heard about them, I have met them. I have talked to them. In gov't contracting in the DC-Baltimore area, you meet people like that from all over the world.

    Their stories are unique, but similar. Born in squalor, they heard stories of the riches of America, and they made it their lives' ambition to get here and make money to feed their families. They toiled, they schemed, they scammed, they worked, they saved, they went hungry, and they moved. They took risks, they faced anguish, and they overcame it to get here. They took advantage of opportunities where they could, or created opportunities where there were none.

    They are not the average person, are they? No. They are above average. They are special. They have the ability to move, think, adapt, learn, seek, and to set for themselves goals and attain them.

    One of my friends is building a college in his hometown in Ethiopia specializing in applied science and technology. Abera. He's awesome. Little short dude whose little brother is a foot taller than him, because when his little brother was growing up in Ethiopia, Abera was sending them half his income for food, and the brother had proper nutrition.

    I can tell you stories like that all day long from all over the world.

    You know these stories of the extraordinary greatness that some humans have, regardless of their circumstances of birth. Why? Why can they change their lives, but no one else can?

    Their stories all have one thing in common. They heard things could be better and they believed it. It started with the receipt of a Word, and they made the Word manifest, by hook or by crook.

    Lots of them had the help of invisible friends too, though they get weird when you start talking about that with them. Ancestors, demons, spirits, saints. Depends on the culture.

    But you know for a fact, Jason, that naturally, without ever doing the Work, some people born into any circumstance, whether it's the bombed out caves of Afghanistan or the riches of Siddartha, will have the natural ability to overcome their circumstances through luck, skill and will. With no magic.

    And you know magic, the Great Work itself, is indeed the technology of creating luck, developing skill, and forging the will. That's what it does, right?

    Is it the lack of the word "potential" in the phrase? "You're a potential priest king, and if you do the Great Work, you'll develop your skills and talents and will and you'll be able to influence your luck."

    Because that's what I've been saying for years.

    And as for titles, fuck all that, I'm not claiming anything but Magus. I am a magician. I talk about what I do, and I sell lessons based on what I've done, and if people want to try to be like me, go for it. I think it will make them better Priest-Kings.

    And the folks who are living shit lives, tossed about by the winds of circumstance that you're talking about, what makes them different from the people that succeed in working their asses off and getting here and making things better for themselves and their families? Is it that they haven't heard that things could be better? Or that they don't really believe it, that is, yes some people do better, but that couldn't be them...?

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  21. I think you are suffering from availability bias. You are making assumptions based on a very specific and biased segment.

    You meet people from the 3rd world because of your involvement in banking and contracting. Think about it. When you are talking about people that "make it" we are talking about something similar to people making it rock stars or movie stars. We hear how they wanted it and never gave up on their dream and overcame the odds. It makes it seem like the 1000 people who try and don't make it for every one that does, just didn't want it enough and it is complete Bullshit.

    When you look further you see that there are family connections, opportunities that are not available generally, and yes dumb luck.

    I have BEEN to Pakistan. I have BEEN to Nepal. I worked in a soup kitchen and know someone who's parent broke their legs so that they could look like they had polio and be a more successful beggar. I know people who are smart, applied for a scholarship to study in the states, qualified for the scholarship but just didn't get it because there were 10 slots and over 1000 applicants. It just came down to luck of the draw. One of those people is now dead from a preventable disease and another works 100+hours a week for about $200 bucks a month making metal knick knacks for tourists.

    But even they are luckier than many.

    So sorry man. It is not about believing harder than others. That is where the whole thing falls apart and where the idea gets BAD for society.

    When you start to think that people are ultimately creating their own luck because of their good karma or because they believe hard, the logical extension is that people suffer because of their own bad karma and that they didnt believe enough. Thus you can write them off as deserving of their fate. It is BULLSHIT.

    The thing is even the genetics we inherent are not "ours". Some people have a predisposition to success, others do not. Some are born mentally ill. Some are born with depression. Its chemistry as much as moxy.

    Genetics, family, area of upbringing, accidents of nature, there the factors that impact any and every situation are enormous. Most of our thoughts and behaviors are mechanistic at best. The very fact that you and I even know about magic and spirituality enough to break this mold even a little (and rest assured man, you and I have only broken through it a little) has more to do with chance than any kind of inherent quality attributable entirely to you.

    The whole argument is not very far from CEO's complaining that the 99% just refuse to pull themselves up from their bootstraps and that No One ever helped them get where they are.

    Would "potential Priest King" be better? Yeah, it would. Cuz what you are currently telling people is that they "ARE the priest kings of their worlds, the ultimate source of their experiences, the final authority on what shit they will put up with. I even tell people they are the creator gods of their lives."

    This is not the same thing. Also, no matter how much you want them to be, no one is ever the final authority of what they put up with in their lives. The universe doesn't work like that.

    As for titles, no you are not just claiming to be a Magus. You made the claim that you have completed the great work. That's different. You are saying that all the people you mentioned in your post didn't know shit (except Crowley) and that anything beyond where you currently are is BS.






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  22. Jason,

    When you start to think that people are ultimately creating their own luck because of their good karma or because they believe hard, the logical extension is that people suffer because of their own bad karma and that they didnt believe enough. Thus you can write them off as deserving of their fate. It is BULLSHIT.

    It is total BULLSHIT and I haven't said a fucking thing like that at all.

    You're taking what I'm saying to a logical extension at a societal level? I'm not putting together a social program here, I'm pointing out some fundamental truths that you and I both take advantage of in our magic.

    Simply put, what I said without your extra baggage, a person who hears that things can be better and believes it is true is going to try. A person who doesn't believe it won't try.

    Two guys read your stuff and one believes your methods might work and the other says it's bullshit. Who is going to use it to their success?

    That's what I'm talking about when it comes to belief, that and nothing else, not one bit more than that. Is that wrong?

    You teach people how to set goals and use magic and mundane tech to achieve those goals. You teach that successful people can and do accomplish amazing things, and you teach people how to use the tech of successful people in their own lives.

    Are you also teaching that unsuccessful people suck? People who don't make goals and do Strategic Sorcery are worthless stupid people that can just be written off? That they should try harder?

    No. Of course not.

    Are you saying magicians don't change their luck or circumstances through supernatural means to create opportunities that they then have to take the initiative to sieze? Because that's what Strategic Sorcery is all about.

    The whole argument is not very far from CEO's complaining that the 99% just refuse to pull themselves up from their bootstraps and that No One ever helped them get where they are.

    Oh bullshit. My argument isn't even close to that, and it doesn't imply that at all.

    I'm telling people they have the potential to have a better life because they were made in the image of god, which makes them creator gods, and because they have the power to create their worlds, which they do.

    This power that we have is what makes your magic work, my magic work, everyone's magic work. Every testimonial that you post to your blog from your successful students is proof Human Beings have the spiritual power and authority to create and change their worlds.

    You don't want to acknowledge that this is the kind of things gods do, fine. Seems pretty miraculous compared to the mundane lives of the average Joe to me.

    And, as Aaron Swarz proved recently, everyone IS the final authority of what they will put up with in their lives.

    I have completed the Great Work, and as I said above, it's other people's misunderstanding of what that means that's causing your issues with what I'm saying about that. You understood that yesterday.

    This?

    You are saying that all the people you mentioned in your post didn't know shit (except Crowley) and that anything beyond where you currently are is BS.

    When I say they didn't know shit, I'm being rhetorical. You understood that when you wrote this:

    ON GURUS:

    I pretty much agree on all this. Coming from a system where the Guru is important, there is so much to cut through that I would never wish it on us. Elders, yes. Peer input, double yes! But perfect Gurus? No.

    ON FINAL ENLIGHTENMENT AND PERFECTION:

    Again, I completely agree with you. I do not even believe in such a thing.


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  23. Well, I apologize if I am adding something that you did not mean. That said, you wrote:

    "And the folks who are living shit lives, tossed about by the winds of circumstance that you're talking about, what makes them different from the people that succeed in working their asses off and getting here and making things better for themselves and their families? Is it that they haven't heard that things could be better? Or that they don't really believe it, that is, yes some people do better, but that couldn't be them...?"

    That sounds to me like exactly what i am talking about. If it is not, than what do you mean?

    Of course I agree with you that someone who hears things and decides to test them (I steer clear of belief in them) will be better off. But that doesn't make them Priest Kings who have the ultimate say over the creation of their reality.

    Of course, I am saying that people take advantage of hidden or supernatural means to change their circumstance. Just like they take advantage of mudane means. That still doesn't make them ultimate rulers of their kingdom.

    Is this the kind of thing GODS do. Yeah, but any being worth that title does it better, more consistently, and more powerfully. Any being not able to, is not worth that Title. Thus my issue with calling ourselves "Living Gods".

    As to the great work, it is NOT other peoples misunderstanding that causes the problem. There is no final definition to understand. What it means to MOST people is not what it means to you. What you mean by it is also not what I would mean by it. Thus when you make the claim you open yourself to critique.

    On the one hand you are saying that all ou have ever claimed is to be a Magus. Yet you are also throwing around the terms Living God and Complted the Great Work.

    Why use these terms? What good does it do if they don't communicate what you actually mean to most people that hear them?

    I said I understood that there was no final perfection or at least that no one had reached it. That is VERY different than saying no-one is at a higher stage. Higher and Highest are quite different things.

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  24. As for Aaron Swarz, yes, you can just kill yourself as the ultimate arbiter of your life, but that is not exactly the action of a man in control of his world.

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  25. So, I feel like I have maybe been hounding you a bit too much. It is out of love and an interest in your work. But I am not going to comment further unless you invite me to.



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  26. Ok, your response makes a lot more sense.

    When I said this:

    "And the folks who are living shit lives, tossed about by the winds of circumstance that you're talking about, what makes them different from the people that succeed in working their asses off and getting here and making things better for themselves and their families? Is it that they haven't heard that things could be better? Or that they don't really believe it, that is, yes some people do better, but that couldn't be them...?"

    I meant I didn't know. That time I wasn't being rhetorical. The ellipses was supposed to mean, "provide me with better answers, what makes them different?"

    Genetics, relationships, circumstance, class, caste... all those things do come together in a life to determine what tools, tech, and resources we have to start with.

    But some people achieve greatness and turn evil circumstance into great fortune. We've seen it happen. It can be done by one, can it not be done by all?

    I guess you're saying it can't. I honestly don't know if that's true.

    I do believe that it helps to hear that things are possible. To be encouraged and motivated. I don't blame anyone for failing. I encourage everyone who has experienced failure to try again though. Because we're pretty awesome beings.

    And I'll say it again, I am not saying there is no one at a higher stage. I am not at the Highest Stage possible.

    I am not even all that high. I've just realized that "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter," in a very *real* and *practical* way that can be taught and passed on and experienced.

    And the reason I use the terms "accomplished the Great Work" and "living god" are because they need to be demystified and knocked off their pedestal. The way you think of the terms is exactly why I should be using them.

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  27. Dogged discussion helps me be more concise in my expression. We disagree about some fundamental things, but it's all good. Mostly I think you're worried about potential negative impacts and larger picture scenarios that I'm not addressing. I don't know whether they need to be addressed or not, but I'm paying attention and taking it into account.

    I enjoy this kind of thing.

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  28. The way you are using the terms doesnt make me de-mystify them. It either makes me think that:

    1. You are lowering the bar to the point where the terms are just silly and meaningless.

    2. You are claiming something that is way beyond you.

    I know the answer is not 2, but I do think that the answer is 1. Sadly I think most people will assume the answer is 2.

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  29. Jason, how is that any different than what I've had to deal with regarding K&CHGA?

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  30. Because Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA is a very specific term with a meaning. It is communication with a spirit. In the systems it exists in, it is something to be accomplished at the beginning. The texts support this, history supports this, and the experience of fellow magicians support this.

    Saying you are a Living God or that you have completed the Great Work is NOT a specific to a particular working. Furthermore where there is some kind of working traditional definition, you are not meeting that credential. You are essentially looking to re-define it down to something else. Why?

    Since you are into Crowley these days, lets take a look:

    "In my third year at Cambridge, I devoted myself consciously to the Great Work, understanding thereby the Work of becoming a Spiritual Being, free from the constraints, accidents, and deceptions of material existence."

    or perhaps...

    "The Quest of the Holy Grail, the Search for the Stone of the Philosophers—by whatever name we choose to call the Great Work—is therefore endless."

    When Crowley DOES make claims about completing the great work, or being an Ipssissimus he is kind of at his worst. The more he protests he is, the more he shows he isn't.

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  31. You know, most of your arguments aren't even with me and what I'm saying, they're with this idea that I'm saying I'm enlightened and it's over. No matter how many times I deny it, or how many times I explain it, you say that's what I've said.

    But here's the deal...

    Because Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA is a very specific term with a meaning. It is communication with a spirit. In the systems it exists in, it is something to be accomplished at the beginning. The texts support this, history supports this, and the experience of fellow magicians support this.

    Right. And what did Crowley do to it? What is the result of Regardie and DMK's publishing of all the GD stuff for the masses outside the lodge? What happened to K&CHGA?

    It became the unattainable end-state goal in the minds of the occult masses. Most people equated attainment of K&C with enlightenment.

    Just like the Great Work is in your mind.

    The operations of the Great Work were not intended to be unattainable, they were intended to be ongoing experiments. Creating the Stone was not supposed to be something impossible that made you ENLIGHTENED. It was a medicine that brought you health and wisdom. Not perfect attainment.

    FFS.

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  32. Rufus, you are not listening to what I am saying.

    You know, most of your arguments aren't even with me and what I'm saying, they're with this idea that I'm saying I'm enlightened and it's over."

    But I am not saying that you are saying that. I KNOW that you are clarifying that when questioned. What I am saying is:

    1. Unless you clarify it every time you use it, people will think that you are saying that, and it is perfectly logical that they should.

    2. What I am saying is that you are mis-using the phrase "Completed the Great Work" by almost any standard other than your own. The term Living God is so bombastic and misleading that I won't even go into it.

    Because Knowledge and Conversation with the HGA is a very specific term with a meaning. It is communication with a spirit. In the systems it exists in, it is something to be accomplished at the beginning. The texts support this, history supports this, and the experience of fellow magicians support this.

    Right. And what did Crowley do to it? What is the result of Regardie and DMK's publishing of all the GD stuff for the masses outside the lodge? What happened to K&CHGA?


    That's not the point. The point was that "The Great Work" does not have this specific of a meaning. Saying you have completed the Great Work or that you are a Living God is not the same as specific claims about K&C or the 8th and 9th sphere. It is in fact deliberately vague so that it is seen as an on-going process. It is the striving for perfection rather than perfection itself.

    The operations of the Great Work were not intended to be unattainable, they were intended to be ongoing experiments. Creating the Stone was not supposed to be something impossible that made you ENLIGHTENED. It was a medicine that brought you health and wisdom. Not perfect attainment.

    Do you have perfect health and perfect wisdom? If not, than what exactly are you claiming to have completed? There is no doubt that you are healthier and wiser and have undergone an initiation, but completed the great work?

    This is where the states and stages comes in. You have reached some pretty great states - but have you made them into stages? Are they your ordinary consciousness? If not, then your Great Work is not so great.

    I have pointed out the many problems that come from claiming such attainments, you you have not pointed out what is the real good from making the claim. Even the OTO asks members of a high degree not to reveal their degree to people in the lower triad. There are warnings against making these claims for a reason. Misunderstanding from others, egoistic self-deception, lowering the bar on attainments. That last one will actually have the opposite effect that you are seeking - by claiming to have completed the great work pre-maturely, yet not holding perfect wisdom and realization you are essentially showing that what they are going for is NOT possible.

    I ask you, apart from assuring people that SOMETHING is attainable, what GOOD comes of claiming to have completed the Great Work?

    If you want to show people that there are states that are attainable: my friend you have already done that. When you hit the 8th sphere it was immediately apparent to everyone both psychically and through your writings and behavior. You should talk specifically about the attainments you have and how they effect your life. To me, just making a vague claim about completing the great work cheapens your work - which is why I have been so argumentative on the point.

    You know why I think its bad to make the claim.

    Why do you think its good? What purpose does it serve?

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  33. It makes it attainable. So that people will do it and make their world - and mine - better. Look how motivated early comments were. It works.

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  34. Ok. So here is my take on that:

    It makes it attainable.

    Of course it does. If you take something that is grand and difficult and apply that name to something more mundane, that will certainly make it seem attainable. "It" just won't actually be "IT".

    You too can be a MILLIONAIRE - and by that I mean make 100k. Its more attainable.

    You too can be a DOCTOR - and by doctor I mean become a medic, because that takes less schooling and is more attainable.

    You too can attain THE GREAT WORK - and by that I mean make some improvements to your health and wisdom.

    When you redefine something truly great in order to make it more attainable, you damage it. Its like when people wanted to make the Ninja Warrior course easier so that there would be at least one winner every season instead only 3 after 20 seasons. Yeah you get to say that you did it, but it no longer means anything.

    People that are motivated by it will only be motivated it if they think you mean something larger - otherwise where does the motivation arise.

    Those that know that you mean something less than that will either know that you have lowered the bar or will be motivated simply to have a meaningless title. The great work becomes another degree in some system.

    Look how motivated early comments were. It works.

    I don't see those comments. I see people supportive of your stance that Guru's are not perfect beings and that life is not and should not be perfect.

    Of course, saying that you wouldn't want life to be without suffering is a little like saying you wouldn't even want a Bugatti Veyron. It's a moot point because you cannot affort one if you did. Despite your assertion, neither you nor I nor anyone else can simply eliminate suffering. At least not until we complete the great work :-)

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  35. Jason, I agree with much of this last comment you've made, and disagree on a fundamental level with other parts of it. However, I'm going to be demonstrating my argument in future posts and actual living rather than more comments on this thread.

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Thanks for your comments, your opinions are valued, even if I disagree with them. Please feel free to criticize my ideas and arguments, question my observations, and push back if you disagree.