Thursday, July 01, 2010

Room for Demons

You know, my recent leaving behind of the Lem's Goetia spirits may have left people thinking my approach to the Spirits doesn't have room for demons. Nothing could be further from the truth at all. The Hermetic System has plenty of room for Demons. They fit right into the cosmology. Recognizing they exist and are responsive to the conjuration techniques we use is essential for long-term success and the accomplishment of the Great Work. Ignoring their existence, not making room for them in your system doesn't eliminate their influence from your life at all. Plugging your ears and going "no demons no demons no demons" isn't going to result in acquiring the Philosopher's stone any more than an ostrich poking its head in the sand keeps it from getting eaten.

You've got to have room in your system for demons, that's the bottom line.

My personal opinion is that the room in the system should look something like this:

See? Plenty of room for demons!

Does that mean no Hermetic Magician should ever let them out to go to work for them? Heck no! If you need something done that you haven't acquired the initiations or empowerments to accomplish without the use of Demons, then by all means, conjure up the demons if you're that impatient. Jason advocates having a laser-specific goal in mind before turning to them, and that might help too.

But what I've seen is that the demons don't deliver what you want or need in the long term. I've found that turning to them for anything is likely to look really appealing in the short term, but eventually circumstances will arise that negate whatever benefit you received from them. You end up extending the problem, postponing some of the effects you want to avoid in the short-term, while adding more problems to clean up later. Eventually, and it might take a couple of years, you'll end up wishing you'd spent the weeks or months Working with nicer spirits with better intentions developing the resources and powers you need to accomplish the goal without infernal influence. Better to leave them in the vault.

I wonder sometimes though, whether my experiences with them has given me some level of protection from stupid magicians sending them against me. A couple were hanging out a month or two ago, and they went away when I noticed them and told them to be gone. They took some things that I needed, but they left.

The thing is, my HGA could have gotten rid of them too. So could my relationship with God. Or Michael. Or holy water. Or even the LBRP.

Nope, I really can't think of anything really useful that came out of my Work with them. Maybe there's something I can't see right now, but if there is... I don't see it.


  1. The image link doesn't work?

  2. you got nothing out of working with 'demons' at all? You weren't doing PR for Bune and all that jazz? Was that just for show? I think you need to take a step back and look, really look. You got burned. Ok. So that does mean you're gonna stay away from fire and eat your meat like the cave people all raw and shit? Maybe, the point of the 'Work', at least some of it, is to learn to work with Goetics (or 'demons' if you prefer) in such a way that one obtains the desired result with minimal casualties (the 'nicer' spirits aren't so casualty-free either). Like that stuff...anti-matter, it's extremely volatile yet a tiny bit could solve alot of problems! I really don't know you at all so I'm prolly just talking out the ass here but maybe it's you and not them? I do remember several people commenting on your extensive work with Goetics, Bune especially. Perhaps they're like radiation, you need to take breaks and wear safety gear when you work with them or you get fucked up? Just my thoughts. Peace.

  3. Fyi, I can't see the image!!!!

  4. Mart, you could be right. Or not.

    I don't know, but I'm not losing sleep over not working with them anymore.

  5. @Martialis: I think RO's big point is that you can totally go Goetic if you like, but in his experience it comes with high negative costs, even though you get your goodies.. most of the time. And I, personally give him the benefit of the doubt here, as he's been working with them for several years. RO, dude, you can correct me if I am wrong.

    In Rouhaniat, the big thing that everyone wants to learn is Jinn Magic. It is the least predictable, least reliable, and most dangerous practice in the system. Does it work? Yes! Are there easier ways? Oh hell yes!

    I think the gist of RO's latest series of Goetic warnings are a direct result of him finding a safer, more reliable, and all around better way to do those same things.

    RO has never denied anyone else having the right to work with the Goets, but he has the right to not work with them if he feels that they are too dangerous to be trusted.

    He might change his mind later.. might not, but I do think it is odd that so very many people have trouble with him being where he is right now. Especially when not working with the Goets has yielded him nothing but positive results.

    To put it another way: If Fix-it-guy can fix a mean car, but you heard from your friend that said dude is going to impregnate your wife, and steal shit from your home as part of the price for fixing your charger, would you still hire him? He might not fuck your wife or steal from you.. but the fact that he did it to a friend of yours does speak to his character and predilections.

    If your friend was fix-it-guys biggest fan before the abuse by fix-it-guy, I would say his warnings are double strong, if for no other reason than most people do not like to admit their mistakes, especially publicly.

  6. There is something you do not see right now. But you will see it eventually. And yes it was because of how you were working with them and why. Is it the Goets you want to stop working with, or was it that what you were working for was not as important as what you were putting at risk to do so? Maybe they are showing you something you can not yet see, or maybe they were just playing with you because you let them..........

    Keep working with those "nicer" spirits and they will show you. Or try asking if you are really curious, probably best to take a little rest first though. It may be an interesting ride....

    Different eyes, through a different source, or a different approach may be more palatable, however, as there is a lot of baggage building down that path for you now. But the Work rolls on...

    Loved the image! Made me laugh, good luck with that ;)

    ALL the best

  7. Oh, and watch out for those "nicer" spirits. As you know, they are just "bound" to throw you back into the divine fire when you are not looking. They are "good" like that. :)

    I know you are having an anti goety "moment" Josh. But you will get over it, under it, around it and then finally through it eventually.

    Love Kathy

  8. Kathy, the Lem's Goetia is not all of Goety though. I'm not opposed to Goety at all. I think it's a time honored tradition. I think there's a whole great deal of value in Chthonic initiatory systems in general.

    I don't think I'm making that clear enough.

    Goety does do some work with Demons when necessary. Otherwise, it works with the spirits of the terrestrial realms. It's nature-based magic, and I'm all about making sure you do that kind of Work as part of the process. I plan on including a lot of that in the Courses.

    The idea that Goety is all about evil spirits, or that evil spirits are the best and most really real representation of Goes magic is wrong. My mistake was in confusing the two, despite ample warning from Jake and others who know better.

  9. "Nicer" spirits? Oh, wow. Let me remind you again of my experience with Planetary spirits, Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury, in particular. Got what I asked for, yep. Nobody got hurt, yep. Just watch out for the fact that all the spirits may see the term "harm" a tad differently from our view. "Harm" means "harm," and doesn't include "discomfort," "inconvenience," or many other little things that can fuck up your day.


Thanks for your comments, your opinions are valued, even if I disagree with them. Please feel free to criticize my ideas and arguments, question my observations, and push back if you disagree.